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Post by MacBeth on Aug 12, 2010 14:00:18 GMT -5
No need to strain yourself with back-breaking weight-lifting sessions involving heavy barbells. Muscle mass can be achieved just as successfully using small weights, a new study shows. The research revealed a similar degree of muscle-building can be achieved by using lighter weights as with bulkier ones, suggesting the secret to building muscle mass is to pump iron until you reach muscle fatigue. "Rather than grunting and straining to lift heavy weights, you can grab something much lighter but you have to lift it until you can't lift it anymore," study researcher Stuart Phillips, associate professor of kinesiology at McMaster University, said in a statement. "We're convinced that growing muscle means stimulating your muscle to make new muscle proteins, a process in the body that over time accumulates into bigger muscles." The findings are published online Aug. 9 in the journal Public Library of Science (PLoS) and involved 15 healthy mean with an average age of 21. The men had to lift light weights (30 percent of what the participant could lift) and heavy weights (90 percent of the subject's best lift) with varying repetitions. Participants were able to lift the heavy weights in the 80-to-90 percent range from five to 10 times before fatigue set in. At 30 percent, subjects could lift that weight at least 24 times before they felt fatigue, according to lead study researcher Nicholas Burd, a doctoral student at McMaster University. "We're excited to see where this new paradigm will lead," Phillips said. He noted that while the study's findings have practical significance for gym enthusiasts, they are especially important to people with compromised skeletal muscle mass, such as the elderly, patients with cancer, or those who are recovering from trauma, surgery and even stroke. However, while light weightlifting may help people attain the same overall results when it comes to muscle mass, it won't provide the same endorphins boost as lifting heavy weights, research has shown. news.yahoo.com/s//livescience/20100811/sc_livescience/newsecrettobuildingmusclerevealedpumplessiron
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Post by Peltigera on Aug 12, 2010 14:16:14 GMT -5
BUT IF YOUWANT TOBE MACHO, IT HAS TOBE BIG WEIGHTS, DOESN'T IT?
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Post by MacBeth on Aug 12, 2010 14:46:26 GMT -5
No, only if you are looking for torn rotator cuffs or stretched out arms
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Pax
Are We There Yet? Member
quod erat demonstrandum.
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Post by Pax on Aug 13, 2010 9:17:58 GMT -5
Advice evolves over time, but I remember ten years ago when I had a personal trainer he told me that you can be small and strong or big and strong, and it just depends on how you exercise. Heavy weights with low repetitions leads to bulked-up muscles. Lighter weights for more repetitions leads to just-as-strong muscles, but not the kind you see on TV.
I have a little trouble wrapping my mind around that, but I guess it could have to do with the "way" in which the muscle gets built. There may also be some kind of physical difference frankly between muscles that are trained for quick loads, and muscles that "expect" loads over a long period. Stamina, in other words. Come to think of it that might affect how blood vessels get distributed through the muscle, leading to the differences, because they take up space too. I have no idea, I'm just thinking out loud.
My brother is kind of a case in point. He looks skinny, but he was able to lift 4x8 foot drywall sections, by himself, over his head, and nail them to the ceiling. ALL by himmself. I had trouble lifting just one side six inches off the ground. I don't think I could lift the whole thing off the ground at all. And yet, to look at us, if anything I look stronger because I'm built stocky. He's not bulky at all.
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Post by joethree56 on Aug 13, 2010 16:09:55 GMT -5
Some of the men with the greatest stamina and strength that I worked with down the mine did not have an impressive physique.
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Post by shiftless2 on Aug 13, 2010 17:48:06 GMT -5
Agreed it can be deceptive. One of the guys I trained with in my college days weighed about 160 at 5'10" and benched 360 for easy reps - he looked like he might be a gymnast but definitely not a weightlifter/bodybuilder. At the other extreme I've trained with power lifters (the guys with 500 pound benches and 900 pound squats) that looked like butterballs. Probably the strongest person I ever trained with was my judo coach back in the early 70's - I remember talking to him at a party and he was fidgetting - folding beer bottle caps in four while he was talking to me. And while he was a big guy (Olympic silver medalist at a body weight of 235) he really didn't look muscular. Chubby yes. Big no. But then you have to understand how he trained. www.judoclub.ca/mpegs/Judoka.wmvGo to about 1:20 of the clip - and he's not joking because he did the same things to us. I started training with him when I went to grad school and three weeks later we started finishing workouts with 100 pushups. By the end of October we were doing 650. Once in a while he decided to punish us (for the record, 1,000 pushups didn't come close to punishment). An aside - if anyone watches mixed martial arts, when they use the term "Kimura" it's named after the Kimura you see at the start of the clip - he shattered Gracie's arm with the armlock that's named after him.
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web
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Post by web on Aug 14, 2010 23:13:34 GMT -5
"Rather than grunting and straining to lift heavy weights, you can grab something much lighter but you have to lift it until you can't lift it anymore,"
Lifting any weight until you can't lift it anymore will produce grunting and straining. the great thing about lifting lighter weight for more reps, for us older people, is that it isn't as taxing on the joints and buliding muscle while burning calories is a huge health plus.
I'm a firm believer in any exercise is good for the body and mind.
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Brian
Super Duper Member
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Post by Brian on Aug 15, 2010 11:45:08 GMT -5
This really isn't a "new secret" at all. In fact, the idea of gaining quality muscle from lifting lighter weights has been around for decades.
Serge Nubret--who, in my opinion probably had the greatest bodybuilder's physique of all time--used higher repetitions in all of his workout sets. And the late Vince Gironda--probably the most "ahead of his time" bodybuilding expert ever--knew about this technique decades ago.
The key, however, is to combine lighter weights with shorter rest periods.--say 15 to 30 seconds between sets rather than 1 or 2 minutes.
Doing so forces a normally light weight to feel quite challenging with each successive set. Additionally, this method--because it forces the body to keep moving--burns more calories since it ramps up the body's intensity level.
Honestly, using the "lighter weights" method properly is in no way "easier" than lifting big heavy weights. Lighter weight training can be intense as hell if doing right. And it can also bring outstanding results.
I do believe that it's easier on the joints, though.
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Post by MacBeth on Aug 15, 2010 13:43:47 GMT -5
People may have thought it, but the NEW information is that someone studied it and found that those espousing this belief were correct.
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Post by shiftless2 on Aug 22, 2010 16:59:51 GMT -5
Brian,
No question that Nubret had one of the "pretiest" bodies of the day (and wouldn't have made the cut today) but he was notorious for doing sixty sets or more per body part. While I won't even guess what roids he was doing, it's probably worth noting that the only other bodybuilder of the day that was noted for his symmetry was better known as "the Chemist".
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Brian
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Post by Brian on Aug 28, 2010 22:47:28 GMT -5
Brian, No question that Nubret had one of the "pretiest" bodies of the day (and wouldn't have made the cut today) but he was notorious for doing sixty sets or more per body part. While I won't even guess what roids he was doing, it's probably worth noting that the only other bodybuilder of the day that was noted for his symmetry was better known as "the Chemist". There's no doubt Nubret used steroids, but it's doubtful he used nearly the amount these roid freaks use today. Serge also had some unbelievable genetics and recovery ability. So it wasn't just the roids. Even so, how about some of the routines he did? Talk about volume. Wow! Have you ever read about the routines Steve Reeves did in the '40s and '50s? Although Reeves swore he never did steroids, it's hard to imagine any "natural" person training on the same routine while making good gains. Reeves employed three full-body workouts a week, using huge numbers of sets for each body part. We're taking workouts of between two and a half and three hours long.
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web
Junior Member
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Post by web on Aug 28, 2010 23:24:23 GMT -5
for discussion:
the possibility that limited use of anabolic steroids under a physicians direction would be beneficial.
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Post by MacBeth on Aug 29, 2010 8:14:56 GMT -5
Like most things, that would probably depend on the MD
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Brian
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Post by Brian on Sept 6, 2010 16:32:39 GMT -5
Shiftless, are you still following a weightlifting routine?
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Post by shiftless2 on Sept 12, 2010 14:04:03 GMT -5
Shiftless, are you still following a weightlifting routine? On and off - I've coasted through the summer (and my waistline shows it) but now that the kids are off to school I've definitely got to start training again. Sitting at a desk all day and business dinners during the week definitely take a toll. Nowadays I don't do that much that's really heavy - other than legs - I've got bum knees and when I don't work out for a couple of months they start to ache and make all sorts of strange (and painful) clicking sounds. Besides, ski season is coming up and I have to be ready.
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Pax
Are We There Yet? Member
quod erat demonstrandum.
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Post by Pax on Sept 12, 2010 14:24:02 GMT -5
I know what you mean about aching -- when I let myself go long enough that I lose too much muscle tone, it's... achy.
I need to get back into upper-body. I have been running fairly consistently, so the legs are taken care of. Oddly when my legs are in good tone my upper body feels worse than it would otherwise.
What I'd like to do is get into canoeing... even better, kayaking. Between running and kayaking, it's the best all-around workout, I think, aside from swimming.
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Post by wayneinfl on Sept 12, 2010 19:17:52 GMT -5
Anybody have problems with heel spurs? I thought I had a bruised heel, so I laid off jogging the last few months. The pain still hasn't gone away. My uncle said I probably have a heel spur. If someone has them, how do you deal with it?
Do you just work through the pain and ice it down later?
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Pax
Are We There Yet? Member
quod erat demonstrandum.
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Post by Pax on Sept 12, 2010 19:42:04 GMT -5
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wheelspinner
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Nobody's perfect, I'm a nobody, so ...
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Post by wheelspinner on Sept 13, 2010 0:12:07 GMT -5
Do you just work through the pain and ice it down later? That's the one thing you never do. If it really feels like "pain", as opposed to "soreness", stop and go to the doctor.
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Post by shiftless2 on Sept 13, 2010 5:40:41 GMT -5
BTW, I have to seriously disagree with one statement from the opening post.
The implication seems to be that lifting lighter weights means there is no straining and grunting which is misleading because the study talked about lifting until failure. By definition, lifting to failure demands straining and possibly grunting so that claim is not really valid. Reaching muscular failure is very demanding irrespective of the weight used.
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Pax
Are We There Yet? Member
quod erat demonstrandum.
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Post by Pax on Sept 13, 2010 6:33:32 GMT -5
It's important to listen to one's body. I'm no expert -- I just jog, and lift weights, though I don't lift nearly as often as I need to. However, after a while I think you can come to recognize soreness from real pain. It's very important not to push your limits. When in doubt, back off. Generally, in my view, once something breaks, be it a bone or a tendon or a ligament, or cartilage, or a bursa, it's never as good as it was.
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Post by shiftless2 on Sept 13, 2010 18:15:00 GMT -5
Pax, in fairness, the OP suggests pushing your limits beyond the point that most people can believe.
Brian commented on Serge Nubret - one of the prettiest physiques of all time - but he was notorious for doing routines that required 60 sets per body part - and I'll guarantee that his idea of "till failure" would have most adults in tears long before they came close to completing their first set let alone their tenth let alone their sixtieth.
From the point of view of anyone that can really "gain" from this sort of routine, pain is an old friend and should be welcomed.
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Pax
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quod erat demonstrandum.
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Post by Pax on Sept 13, 2010 19:59:31 GMT -5
I'll take your word for it. Personally, I take it way easy. I push myself just enough, but I don't kill myself. It's not worth it. I'm losing weight and I feel good... managed to do nine miles last Saturday. Good enough for me. I can't believe I'm actually considering doing a half marathon in the next couple of years.
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Post by Peltigera on Sept 14, 2010 11:13:23 GMT -5
It's important to listen to one's body. but my body always says "sit down!"
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Post by Peltigera on Sept 14, 2010 11:16:19 GMT -5
Anybody have problems with heel spurs? I thought I had a bruised heel, so I laid off jogging the last few months. The pain still hasn't gone away. My uncle said I probably have a heel spur. If someone has them, how do you deal with it? Do you just work through the pain and ice it down later? I don't have one but my mother has bony spurs in a number of places. She is currently bedridden as a bony spur is growing inside her spine and is pressing on her spinal chord in her upper neck. I am hoping there is not genetic aspect to this as it is not pleasant at all.
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Post by shiftless2 on Sept 14, 2010 16:36:16 GMT -5
It's important to listen to one's body. And, if you want to really gain from the sort of routine suggested in the opening post, you listen and you ignore. I commented earlier on a coach that regularly had us do 650 pushups after a two hour workout that would have most people puking their guts out - we considered that normal. I've trained with national level competitive bodybuilders and I will tell you that when they pick that bar out of the racks they're someplace else. They are not here. They're someplace that is perhaps best described as "beyond pain". I've hit the edges of that - repping out after a heavy bench session - load 250 on the bar and go till you can't go anymore (and your spotter is helping you) - around about rep 25 it gets serious - somewhere a little farther on you'd quit except your spotter won't let you put the bar on the rack. And somewhere down the road it really starts to hurt.
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Brian
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Post by Brian on Sept 14, 2010 18:30:19 GMT -5
I think for the purposes of this discussion we need to set some perimeters about "pain" in regard to exercise. There is certainly a distinction between good and bad pain.
Pain from a heel spur, bone spur, or shin splint is NOT the kind of pain someone should be "working through" ; likewise, people with tendinitis pain in the shoulder, knee or elbow should not be "working through" the pain, either. The same goes for someone who has pain from a lingering hamstring pull; "working through it" can and often will do more harm than good.
But let's say someone is lifting weights as part of a workout program. An intense weight workout causes muscular fatigue (a pump) that it can feel painful; however, if someone in such a situation stops as soon as the exercise gets challenging, very little (if any) real progress or muscle growth will result. Therefore, it is important for a person to push himself or herself at least a few reps past the point where an exercise starts getting hard because THAT is where the real progress is made. And this doesn't only have to be about using heavy weights. For instance, with certain muscles of the body--legs for instance--I've always gotten better results from using high repetitions (usually between 15 and 30 reps per set). Believe me, doing 20 reps on a leg exercise can be just as intense as using heavier weights. Moreover, the reps between 15 and 20 can be particularly intense!
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Brian
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Post by Brian on Sept 14, 2010 20:50:24 GMT -5
Pax, in fairness, the OP suggests pushing your limits beyond the point that most people can believe. Brian commented on Serge Nubret - one of the prettiest physiques of all time - but he was notorious for doing routines that required 60 sets per body part - and I'll guarantee that his idea of "till failure" would have most adults in tears long before they came close to completing their first set let alone their tenth let alone their sixtieth. From the point of view of anyone that can really "gain" from this sort of routine, pain is an old friend and should be welcomed. Steve Reeves was another one who did massive amounts of sets per workout (all to failure). And this was back in the 1940s and 1950s--before steroids came onto the scene. On top of that, Reeves worked his whole body three times a week in workouts lasting from two and a half to three hours. I don't know how he did it without becoming seriously overtrained. I've seen written examples of Reeves' workouts. I'd say 95 percent of "natural" lifters couldn't have trained like that without getting injured or overtrained. Shiftless, when it comes to weight training do you favor whole-body routines or split routines?
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Brian
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Post by Brian on Sept 14, 2010 21:04:47 GMT -5
It's important to listen to one's body. but my body always says "sit down!" It's interesting that you bring up sitting. I wanted to talk a bit about that. I've often thought that many "normal" and seemingly "sedentary" things we do can mess up our joints as much as any exercise program. Take sitting, for instance. I've often found that my knees hurt if I sit for too long a period of time. Although various physical activities are said to place the body at risk for injury, could it be that many "sedentary" activities are just as much of a culprit? I think so. Perhaps Don Rumsfeld was on to something when he revealed that he's always used a "standing" desk.
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Brian
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Post by Brian on Sept 14, 2010 21:29:36 GMT -5
I'll take your word for it. Personally, I take it way easy. I push myself just enough, but I don't kill myself. It's not worth it. I'm losing weight and I feel good... managed to do nine miles last Saturday. Good enough for me. I can't believe I'm actually considering doing a half marathon in the next couple of years. Pax, I think it's great that you're one of those people with enough insight to do BOTH strength-training exercise and cardiovascular exercise. Make sure you do flexibility work, too. Those are pretty much the three parts of the fitness triangle--all of them being important. I've always been astounded when people only do ONE of the three things yet consider themselves "in shape." Lots of guys who lift weights are like that: guys who can lift a ton yet can't touch their toes or run around the block without wanting to keel over. Then there are the "runners" who do nothing but run and look like some starving, emaciated person from a Third World country.
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