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Post by Peltigera on Feb 9, 2009 12:10:04 GMT -5
The principal shopping areas here are Wal-mart, shopping malls, and supermarkets. You can't drive in there and you can't ride a bike in there anyway. It's totally different. Wal-Marts, malls and supermarkets (we have all those!) have roads outside them and it is those we pedestrianise - not the inside of buildings!
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Post by MacBeth on Feb 9, 2009 12:20:11 GMT -5
We have no problem riding bikes to those locations in my area - except in the winter. And that has nothing to do with auto traffic.
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Post by wayneinfl on Feb 9, 2009 12:34:44 GMT -5
"Wal-Marts, malls and supermarkets (we have all those!) have roads outside them and it is those we pedestrianise - not the inside of buildings!"
These are all located on highways here. You can't "pedestrianise" a highway. It's not as if these businesses revolve around a central location. Some of the old towns, like I grew up in Indiana have a town circle and most of the businesses are centered in the middle of town. You could shut down roads in someplace like that, or even in the middle of some of the urban centers like downtown Palm Beach, Miami or Fort Lauderdale. But around here, the businesses tend to follow a strip of highway.
Like Oskar said we don't start in the middle of town and rebuild. New things just keep sprawling out from the center, along highways.
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Post by joethree56 on Feb 9, 2009 12:44:08 GMT -5
Like Oskar said we don't start in the middle of town and rebuild. New things just keep sprawling out from the center, along highways. And that raises the whole issue of town planning and of course the freedoms issues therein. IE. freedom to sprawl or freedom from urban blight. It is though yet another area where public expenditure might well be justified. Of course the first task would be to educate people to see the problem.
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oskar
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Post by oskar on Feb 9, 2009 13:01:42 GMT -5
You can't "pedestrianise" a highway. Of course you can but it can be pretty costly as an afterthought. It's a heck of a lot cheaper if it is considered when building the highway in the first place.
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Post by wayneinfl on Feb 9, 2009 13:05:46 GMT -5
In any case it's not a problem with bike path funding.
And I don't see urban blight as a problem with sprawl. It tends to work on a cycle in our area. Poor people need somewhere to live and as they move into older neighborhoods, crime, etc. goes up property values go down, and after a while property gets so cheap that developers buy it up and rebuild. The poor move further out and the urban blight moves with them. Unbtil you change the people there's still going to be blight.
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oskar
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Post by oskar on Feb 9, 2009 13:05:51 GMT -5
A type of reverse "urban sprawl" has been taking place in Montreal over the last decade or so. The suburbs are being abandoned for the city core. People are doing away with automobiles and using bicycles, public transport and/or walking. If they need a car they simply rent one for the required time.
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oskar
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Post by oskar on Feb 9, 2009 13:08:11 GMT -5
Unbtil you change the people there's still going to be blight.
Oh. Tell that to the people of Montreal, then. They're still the same people as when I lived there.
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Post by wayneinfl on Feb 9, 2009 13:14:20 GMT -5
You can't "pedestrianise" a highway. Of course you can but it can be pretty costly as an afterthought. It's a heck of a lot cheaper if it is considered when building the highway in the first place.
Why would you shut down the US 1 in front of Wal-mart, then shut it down two miles down the road in front of our grocery store, then shut down the SR 76 in front of the other grocery store 3 miles away? It wouldn't make a lick of sense.
It makes sense in an area in which all the shopping is packed together. And I suppose you could have planned our town around one big center and shut down the roads to traffic around it, but if you had one big center in a coastal town that runs along a twelve mile strip of highway, it would mean even more people, driving more cars, further. You wouldn't be able to hop on a bike or in a car and drive 1/2 a mile to the grocery store like I can now.
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Post by wayneinfl on Feb 9, 2009 13:15:28 GMT -5
"Oh. Tell that to the people of Montreal, then. They're still the same people as when I lived there. "
"The suburbs are being abandoned for the city core."
Was there the urban blight you speak of in the core of the city? Where did the people of the city core go? Who's living in the suburbs?
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Post by joethree56 on Feb 9, 2009 13:35:08 GMT -5
but if you had one big center in a coastal town that runs along a twelve mile strip of highway,
Then that in itself represents urban blight. Twelve miles of continuous linear development to me represents the best argument for structured town planning that I could possible think of.
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Post by wayneinfl on Feb 9, 2009 13:41:15 GMT -5
Great. But you should have voiced that opinion in 1923. Or at least by the 60's, by which time, most of the town was platted out.
Not that it would have been an easy sell. People who live in big cities today enjoy living in the middle of a city. I'm sure the people of Montreal want to live in the middle of Montreal. My wife probably would. Most people around here want to live away from commercial and industrial centers and condominiums.
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oskar
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Post by oskar on Feb 9, 2009 13:49:15 GMT -5
Montreal is on an island and people simply got fed up with spending hours stuck in traffic trying to get to bridges. The Provincial government rezoned all undeveloped areas of the province as "agricultural" some years ago. That prevented one heck of a lot of urban sprawl. Most of the downtown cores in Quebec are healthy and thriving not crumbling.
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Post by wayneinfl on Feb 9, 2009 14:04:17 GMT -5
Well if it works in a metropolis in Canada on an island it must be a one size fits all solution that will work in my small Florida city as well.
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oskar
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Post by oskar on Feb 9, 2009 14:09:25 GMT -5
Well if it works in a metropolis in Canada on an island it must be a one size fits all solution that will work in my small Florida city as well.
I don't believe anybody said that or even came close to saying that other than you. Around here, in a rural area, some old railbeds have been converted into cycling/walking and X-country skiing paths, others into ATV/snowmobile trails. Not the same thing as Montreal at all. In Europe they have found other solutions according to what they have to work with, but hey, in Wayne's mind it's all or nothing, as usual.
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Post by joethree56 on Feb 9, 2009 14:21:14 GMT -5
Wayne A ribbon of seafront development stretching for miles. OK so no one wants to develop the hinterland behind the seafront so how does such a place develop? I think the clue to that is in its twelve mile crawl up the coast. What next a twenty four mile long ribbon city? What happens when you run out of suitable coastline?.
Here is just a little of what was done here after recognition of the problems.
Town Planning Act 1909, which forbade the building of back-to-back housing, symbolic of the poverty of the industrial cities, and allowed local authorities to prepare schemes of town planning Housing Act 1919, which gave the Ministry of Health authority to approve the design of houses Housing Act 1930, which required all slum housing to be cleared in designated improvement areas
Pressure on the countryside With all the new housing, the rise of the motorcar and continued industrial development, the countryside came under increasing pressure.
For example, between 1919 and 1939 over four million new homes were built, the majority on green fields, and advertising hoardings sprung up unregulated across the landscape. octopus book
As pressure was put on the Government to take action, two important acts of Parliament were passed:
Town and Country Planning Act 1932, which was the first legislation to accept the desirability of countrywide rural planning Restriction of Ribbon Development Act 1935, which was designed to prevent the sprawl of towns and cities across the countryside. 'Ribbon development' is linear development of long rows of buildings built along main roads leading out of towns
The end of the Second World War brought consensus over the need for comprehensive planning to rebuild bombed out towns and cities and to help reorganise industry.
The Town and Country Planning Act 1947 introduced the basis of the system that we have today. It introduced two significant changes:
Local authorities now had to complete a local plan, setting out detailed policies and specific proposals for the development and use of land in a district. Land use would be controlled and planning permission would be required for development.
Other important events include
1955: The national Green Belt system is put in place to prevent urban sprawl (the first Green Belts were designated around London before the Second World War 1968: County structure plans are introduced to co-ordinate and guide local plans 1988: Regional planning guidance is introduced to act as a strategic guide for county structure plans
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Post by Rob on Feb 9, 2009 14:37:18 GMT -5
The UK is much more densely populated than the US, and a lot of those people who live within 5 miles of their jobs work at home, especially in rural areas. Of those who live in urban centres, they're much more likely to have public transportation, and safety from traffic may yet take a back seat to safety from crime. Few people are going to be biking home from their convenience-clerk jobs at 3 a.m. That's a larger issue that's not going to be solved quickly. The U.S. just didn't grow up as a walking populace, as other countries have done. It's not a matter just of growing in the right direction; there are a lot of direct impediments to be dismantled. First off, I'd get rid of the snow.
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Post by joethree56 on Feb 9, 2009 14:41:59 GMT -5
We have not done enough and IMO the government has been far too willing to listen to developers pressing for permission to develop greenfield sites rather than kicking their fat rears and sending them out to redevelop brownfield sites, but we have avoided the linear sprawl to a large extent.
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oskar
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Post by oskar on Feb 9, 2009 14:42:15 GMT -5
First off, I'd get rid of the snow.
Why? It makes for several days off every winter.
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Post by Rob on Feb 9, 2009 14:48:22 GMT -5
Only for retired guys like you. I just have to shovel before I go to work.
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Post by Peltigera on Feb 9, 2009 14:48:57 GMT -5
You can keep the snow to yourself. 'They' are forecasting 8 inches of snow this week in Lincoln! As if the inch we have already had was not enough.
Of course the USA is very different to the UK. Our island is one of the most densely populated places of the planet and then USA is one of the least densely populated. Doesn't mean we cannot learn - and it doesn't mean that some of the problems are not ubiquitous. Following on from Joe's mention of Structure Plans and Local Plans (both of which I have helped to develop in North Lincolnshire), it is a requirement to consider the distances likely to be travelled between work and home - meaning industrial areas and residential areas are now smaller and closer to each other. This has nothing to do with crowding but is to do with traffic reduction and pollution reduction: things the USA has more need of than we do.
There is also the point that development based on a square or circular basis has cheaper infrastructure than ribbon development ever can. As the USA has ever less wealth left to squander, that is going to be more and more important.
There is also a deal of psycho-maths involved here that the UK is only belatedly getting to grips with - it will apply in the USA as well.
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wheelspinner
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Post by wheelspinner on Feb 9, 2009 14:50:22 GMT -5
As far as commuter biking, yes, I did point out that bike lanes alongside highways are a joke. Funding won't fix that. Actually it will. You invest in Copenhagen-style bike lanes where the parked cars are between the cyclists and the traffic. Same amount of space required, but much safer for cyclists. As I said, it just takes some imagination and the willingness to invest.
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Post by Rob on Feb 9, 2009 15:00:27 GMT -5
And it's all a good thing to do, but it doesn't make sense to assume that all or even most of those who live within 5 miles of their jobs live in places where bicycling is a good solution for transit.
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Post by Georgina on Feb 9, 2009 15:04:42 GMT -5
Most North American cities are designed around the use of automobiles. The majority of people live in suburban neighbourhoods, far away from where they work in urban centres. Rural situations are even more remote. Some areas could really profit from better bicycling facilities; I've lived in a few and wished it had been available to me. But, for the most part, we're designed around using cars to get about.
Edited to add: And yes, it's a great thing to do. As I said, in certain areas I've lived, it would have been ideal. Except when it's -30C out with snow drifts. Then, even public transportation doesn't make sense.
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oskar
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Post by oskar on Feb 9, 2009 15:24:10 GMT -5
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Post by Rob on Feb 9, 2009 15:26:14 GMT -5
Indeed, G. It won't replace hibernation any time soon.
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Post by Georgina on Feb 9, 2009 15:54:56 GMT -5
Oskar, downtown Edmonton is a maze of underground tunnels and overground pedways too. Getting about on foot during the winter is a snap. It's getting there. There's virtually no housing downtown (although that's changing a bit) so you have to step outdoors at some point to arrive there. Even living in one of the old neighbourhoods that are relatively close to downtown, walking several blocks to get to public transportation to get downtown isn't always viable. Never mind even contemplating a bicycle. And yes, Rob, hibernating is really the only realistic option some days.
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oskar
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Post by oskar on Feb 9, 2009 16:07:52 GMT -5
A good subway system helps, G. And, in spite of the griping when it isn't perfect, Montreal also has an excellent above-ground transportation system, both bus and commuter trains. Oh, and, IMO, Montreal is one of the world's greatest cities. Could you tell?
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Post by wayneinfl on Feb 9, 2009 17:12:54 GMT -5
"Actually it will. You invest in Copenhagen-style bike lanes where the parked cars are between the cyclists and the traffic. Same amount of space required, but much safer for cyclists." What parked cars? We don't park cars alongside highways here. This is on front of our Wal-mart for example Look at the street view- pan down the street. Generally they put bike lanes on the right, between the turn lane and travel lanes. But there are walks already on both sides of the highway. It wouldn't hurt to replace them with asphalt when it's time to repave, but they make serviceable bike paths as it is. maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=4122+federal+highway+stuart&sll=27.155775,-80.220816&sspn=0.00884,0.019312&g=4100+federal+highway+stuart&ie=UTF8&ll=27.157073,-80.220795&spn=0.00884,0.019312&z=16&iwloc=addr&layer=c&cbll=27.155678,-80.220764&panoid=QjoVrRkzBEDBkz1D2BlJZw&cbp=12,342.9589417936303,,0,5
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Post by wayneinfl on Feb 9, 2009 17:17:18 GMT -5
"Wayne A ribbon of seafront development stretching for miles. OK so no one wants to develop the hinterland behind the seafront so how does such a place develop? I think the clue to that is in its twelve mile crawl up the coast. What next a twenty four mile long ribbon city? What happens when you run out of suitable coastline?. "
It stops when it gets to a national park, state park, or agricultural zoned area. These areas are where the sprawl stops. Fort Lauderdale has stopped at the Everglades for instance, and now developers are buying up blocks downtown and putting up condos. Wilton Manor is cleaning up and becoming an upscale area for gays. Liberty City in Miami has some of the finest condos backed right up to slums. The urban poor, criminals, and drug dealers are leaving the downtown areas for the suburbs.
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