Grandma: Octuplets mom obsessed with having kids

[MacBeth]

LOS ANGELES – The woman who gave birth to octuplets this week conceived all 14 of her children through in vitro fertilization, is not married and has been obsessed with having children since she was a teenager, her mother said.

Angela Suleman told The Associated Press she was not supportive when her daughter, Nadya Suleman, decided to have more embryos implanted last year.

"It can't go on any longer," she said in a phone interview Friday. "She's got six children and no husband. I was brought up the traditional way. I firmly believe in marriage. But she didn't want to get married."

Nadya Suleman, 33, gave birth Monday in nearby Bellflower. She was expected to remain in the hospital for at least a few more days, and her newborns for at least a month.

A spokeswoman at Kaiser Permanente Bellflower Medical Center said the babies were were progressing daily, with all eight breathing unassisted and being tube-fed.

While her daughter recovers, Angela Suleman is taking care of the other six children, ages 2 through 7, at the family home in Whittier, about 15 miles east of downtown Los Angeles.

She said she warned her daughter that when she gets home from the hospital, "I'm going to be gone."

Angela Suleman said her daughter always had trouble conceiving and underwent in vitro fertilization treatments because her fallopian tubes are "plugged up."

There were frozen embryos left over after her previous pregnancies and her daughter didn't want them destroyed, so she decided to have more children.

Her mother and doctors have said the woman was told she had the option to abort some of the embryos and, later, the fetuses. She refused.

Her mother said she does not believe her daughter will have any more children.

"She doesn't have any more (frozen embryos), so it's over now," she said. "It has to be."

Nadya Suleman wanted to have children since she was a teenager, "but luckily she couldn't," her mother said.

"Instead of becoming a kindergarten teacher or something, she started having them, but not the normal way," he mother said.

Her daughter's obsession with children caused Angela Suleman considerable stress, so she sought help from a psychologist, who told her to order her daughter out of the house.

"Maybe she wouldn't have had so many kids then, but she is a grown woman," Angela Suleman said. "I feel responsible and I didn't want to throw her out."

Little psychological research has been conducted on the reasons some mothers seem hooked on repeated pregnancies. David Diamond, a co-director for the Center for Reproductive Psychology in San Diego, said mothers can be drawn to repeat pregnancies for a number of reasons, with some finding the experience so satisfying they choose to become surrogates.

Diane G. Sanford, a psychologist and author specializing in women's reproductive mental health, said while she doesn't know much about Nadya Suleman's background, women that have obsessive-compulsive disorder can become fixated on different obsessions.

"Her obsession centers around children, having children and being a mother," she said. "To what degree are her esteem and identity based on being a mom and why has this from a young age been such a preoccupation of hers?"

Yolanda Garcia, 49, of Whittier, said she helped care for Nadya Suleman's autistic son three years ago.

"From what I could tell back then, she was pretty happy with herself, saying she liked having kids and she wanted 12 kids in all," Garcia told the Long Beach Press-Telegram.

"She told me that all of her kids were through in vitro, and I said 'Gosh, how can you afford that and go to school at the same time?"' she added. "And she said it's because she got paid for it."

Garcia said she did not ask for details.

Nadya Suleman holds a 2006 degree in child and adolescent development from California State University, Fullerton, and as late as last spring she was studying for a master's degree in counseling, college spokeswoman Paula Selleck told the Press-Telegram.

Her fertility doctor has not been identified. Her mother told the Los Angeles Times all the children came from the same sperm donor but she declined to identify him.

Birth certificates reviewed by The Associated Press identify a David Solomon as the father for the four oldest children. Certificates for the other children were not immediately available.

Angela Suleman told reporters Friday that doctors implanted far fewer than eight embryos but they multiplied. Experts said this could be possible since Nadya Suleman's system has likely been hyperstimulated for years with fertilization treatments and drugs.

The news that the octuplets' mother already had six children sparked an ethical debate. Some medical experts were disturbed to hear that she was offered fertility treatment, and troubled by the possibility that she was implanted with so many embryos.

"You should always shoot for one," said Dr. Marcelle Cedars, a professor and director of reproductive health at the University of California, San Francisco, Medical Center, who worried about the increased risk of potential health complications for the babies.

Others worried that she would be overwhelmed trying to raise so many children and would end up relying on public support.

"This woman could not comprehend the ramifications of having eight children of the same age at the same time," said Judith Horowitz, a Parkland, Fla.-based psychologist and author who works with couples on fertility issues. "After Pampers stops delivering the free diapers, then what?"

The eight babies — six boys and two girls — were delivered by cesarean section weighing between 1 pound, 8 ounces and 3 pounds, 4 ounces. Forty-six physicians and staff assisted in the deliveries.




news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090131/ap_on_re_us/octuplets

[crazielollie]

Amazing! And all of this done with the help of science!

[Temperament]

Ya your right. Science sucks we shouldn't have it.

[Calluna]

Feb 1, 2009 11:45:33 GMT -5 crazielollie said:

Amazing! And all of this done with the help of science!

Right, because when you're poor, it's much better to have all those kids you can't afford the natural way with many different fathers.

I'd love to know who paid for her fertility treatments if she's unemployed and so poor. Those treatments aren't cheap, so someone is enabling her obsession as well, aside from the unethical physician who implanted so many embryos.

[firefly]

Is it impolite to call attention to the fact that the woman, whatever her educational accomplishments, obviously has a mental aberration when it comes to parental responsibility?

Is it impolite to call attention to the fact that this woman cannot, and could not, have impregnated herself, but needed the help of the medical doctors and technicians who were all well paid for this expensive procedure, most likely by taxpayer dollars?

The medical professionals could have declined to perform the procedures "in the best interest of the health of the mother," but opted to perform the procedures in what was apparently the best interest of the medical professionals involved.

If the mother had asked them to remove both her eyeballs because she couldn't stand to look at rainy days, are the doctors required, or willing, to blindly obey the command of a patient who is obviously making an flawed decision with regard to her health and her responsibilities?

The woman had six children already. The doctors KNOW she is not married. The doctors KNOW she already has six children. It is indicated that ALL of the children were done through medical procedures.

It's all well and good to begin, as usual, to kick the woman around with inferences of her taking the taxpayers to the cleaners. The woman, it is indicated, is emotionally, or psychiatrically, impaired in the area of child bearing. A responsible medical community would be treating her for the mental problem, not continuing to impregnate her for their enrichment and fame, while catering to her irrational sense of need and responsibility. She's a helluva walking advertisement, isn't she?

There I go again, stepping on toes. Sorry. My toes are not without bruises. Stuff happens.

[crazielollie]

Calluna,

You're suggesting she's poor but is she? Haven't heard anything about that. Don't see how she could afford fertility treatments when she's already supporting 6 and basically a student if she was poor. Most women dealing with 6 kids and one of them being autistic would most likely be looking to cease reproduction. She must be the queen of multi-taskers to have all these kids while getting an education.

One of the news stations had said her father said there would be no more info on the family as he was going to take them home and away from the media. Only heard that once. Guess it's possible there might be money in the family that supports her and her family.

Oh, yeah, as to your "Right, because when you're poor, it's much better to have all those kids you can't afford the natural way with many different fathers", nope. Actually I truly believe that those who choose having children without a means of support should get help with the first (possibly an accident) and maybe with the second but unless they chose a permanent form of birth control, public help should cease.

[MacBeth]

She lives with her parents who declared bankruptcy and moved into the rental house they are in now. I suspect they are not rolling in dough

[Calluna]

Other stories have reported her as unemployed, and living with her bankrupt parents, so yes, that sounds like poor to me. As for how she afforded those fertility treatments, that's my question too.

As for my other comment, that was sarcasm, to point out the illogic of broadly blaming science when it was human ethical decisions that are at question here, by her and her doctors. I think the situation is just the same as if she had gone off and gotten pregnant the natural many times more than she could afford...if she's expecting special treatment because this was a deliberate choice to have this many children instead of accidental pregnancies, it sure won't come from me.

And, yes, I do think she has a psychiatric problem that should have been addressed directly rather than allowing her to have more babies. There were a lot of levels of irresponsibility on the part of whomever performed the IVF for her.

[crazielollie]

Calluna,

Sorry, I was just being a smartass with the science comment.

A lot of the problem we have with the lack of responsibility in family planning comes from the "bailouts". Teen age girls are chosing to become pregnant without a partner because they want a baby. We can't stop them and we can't stop her. The only thing we can do is stop supporting unwise choices. In truth, we do the opposite. We do it with tax credits, tax deductions, welfare, free health care etc.. Women who produce without a plan get help with college (yes, they can choose to go for a Master's degree with the taxpayer footing their living expenses if they know how to work the system). I'm waiting to find out how she managed fertility treatments. Is it possible that our government paid for it under the new notion that no one should be denied the ability to reproduce or some such crazy idea? The idea that we just can't deny help to anyone is nuts. There is a question of personal responsibility and it shouldn't be dismissed by having the government step in to provide what parents should be doing on their own. There are always situations that can't be planned for but much of what we're doling out to care for the children of the irresponsible is unnecessary and the burden of paying for it falls on those who are responsible.

Latest I heard was that her grandfather is talking about raising money. He was a contractor working in Iraq before and evidently thinks he can manage to earn quite a bit. Only mention it because it seems her family has a sense of responsibility for themselves and for her and her children. The sense of family supporting family seems to be there. Doesn't matter though as it sounds as though she has plans for paid interviews, books, etc. that might do the trick to support the family. Then we have to pray she doesn't use any more of it on reproductive technology. How she got this far though would be interesting to know. Might be a wake up call to some who believe we're "helping" and refuse to see how much is wasted helping people to live irresponsible lives.

You're right - this is no different than women and couples who have babies they can't support and turn to the government for help - and get it. She's a good mother. So am I and I would have liked to had 6 children. We didn't as there was a certain standard of living I wanted the children to be able to enjoy that wouldn't have been possible for us to provide on our own. I don't resent her 14 - only resent the idea that the taxpayers have been putting out for her and her choices and will continue to do so until some private company decides to make her a millionaire a couple times over.

[firefly]

"The idea that we just can't deny help to anyone is nuts. There is a question of personal responsibility and it shouldn't be dismissed by having the government step in to provide what parents should be doing on their own."

Lollie,

Could this woman have impregnated herself, implainting those embryos with the aid of a bathroom mirror and a q-tip? I think not. It is not the same as having sex while unmarried and randomly producing the single parent child--which is rarely eight children at one time.

These children were conceived at the hands of a team of highly trained, professional individuals who knew exactly and precisely what they were doing and to whom they were doing it.

The woman is and was mentally irrational and not responsible for this. The innocent embryos were not able to make the decision. Her other six children were not able to create these additional lives.

There is only one group of people who had the power to do what was done, and they are the ones totally responsible for the outcome. They should not have been paid, especially if they were paid using taxpayer funding. They ought to be sued for reckless endangerment and malpractice. But, then, thank you George Bush, there's been tort reform. It's much more difficult now to sue anything medical, no matter what it does.

(As one lawyer recently told me: Now that tort reform has been passed, it is really difficult to sue and win a malpractice case against anything medical unless it involves death. And you didn't die.) (He left off the unspoken "unfortunately.")

[oskar]

Free market capitalism doesn't exclude the medical profession. If there's a profit to be made it's all good.

[Rob]

Bleh. I just had a perfectly good post written and it went away.

The technology is a red herring in this case. What if she had been able to accomplish this with a Q-tip in her own bathroom? Then whose fault would it be?

Sure, it was a bad idea, and any doc I know would have told her to take it on dodwn the road, but the ethics of any decision to prevent it are far from clear. It's her body, her embryos, her life, and if an adult woman's right to make decisions about reproduction is in anywhere close to absolute, here we are. It's not many steps from making the judgment to refuse this to perform this procedure to making a judgment to refuse to perform any number of others.

[Calluna]

There are professional standards, though, for IVF. I belong to the same professional societies as people who perform IVF, and know the director of the fertility clinic here. Even if nobody had reason to deny her from embryo implantation, there very much are professional standards that would tell them they should not have implanted enough embryos to result in octuplets, no matter how much she requested it. The risk to her AND the developing fetuses is considered too great to risk that high of multiples. The professional standard is to implant no more than 3 embryos, and then only if there are reasons to believe there are implantation problems that would prevent all three from becoming viable. When she has had previous successful pregnancies via IVF, they should have never implanted more than 2 embryos, knowing both very well might implant successfully. From the various news stories, it sounds like she had no implantation or ovarian problems, just blocked Fallopian tubes, so there was no reason to think she needed more embryos implanted to get a single successful implantation.

There are some clinics that are still unethical, though, and do not adhere to professional standards. The reason is that every time they have a patient who conceives triplets or quadruplets, that increases their overall statistics of live births/patient. Beware the clinics with unusually high sounding success rates. If anyone is ever in need of such services, DO ask how many of their births are singlets, twins or higher order multiples. If they have a lot of triplets or more, find another provider. The thing is, while these are professional and ethical standards, they are not legal standards. If you end up with a bunch of healthy children and nobody dies, it's really hard to call that malpractice, so it may never be restricted by legal proceedings.

[Rob]

This isn't the case that's going to make the case law, either. Her doc (who may or may not be in Mexico) is going to say, "Her chart showed a history of failed implantations, so we went with the high number and a plan to reduce if necessary. Once she was out of my care, she changed her mind."

Every day there are huge numbers of medical procedures that I would consider unethical. Unfortunately, we've sort of taken ethics out of the hands of docs and put it solely in the province of regulatory agencies. What we have is a pretty firm and fast rule that says "If it's within your scope of practice and it's not against the law, you can't refuse to do it."

[MacBeth]

Octuplets' mom says she had 6 embryos implanted



WHITTIER, Calif. – The mother of newborn octuplets says she had six embryos implanted in her fertility procedure — far more than industry guidelines recommend under ordinary circumstances — and was well aware that multiple births could result.

"I wanted them all transferred," Nadya Suleman told NBC's "Today" show. "Those are my children, and that's what was available and I used them. So, I took a risk. It's a gamble. It always is."

"It turned out perfectly," Suleman added in a portion of the interview broadcast Friday.

Other portions of interview are scheduled to air next week.

The interview and public documents obtained by The Associated Press lifted the veil of secrecy in which Suleman shrouded herself after the Jan. 26 births.

The 33-year-old single, unemployed woman has been harshly criticized for having a fertility procedure and risking multiple births when she already has six young children, including twins.

With in vitro fertilization, doctors frequently implant more than one embryo to improve the odds that one will take. However, the U.S. fertility industry has guidelines that call for no more than two embryos be implanted for women under 35 "in the absence of extraordinary circumstances."

Experts say there is a small chance that embryos can divide, which apparently led to the octuplets.

Suleman said she had six embryos implanted for each of the previous in vitro procedures that resulted in her other six children, including twins.

"All I wanted was children. I wanted to be a mom. That's all I ever wanted in my life," she said. "I love my children.

In the interview, Suleman said she struggled for seven years before finally giving birth to her first child. According to state documents, Suleman told a doctor she had three miscarriages. Another doctor disputed that number, saying she had two ectopic pregnancies, a dangerous condition in which a fertilized egg implants somewhere other than in the uterus.

Suleman said all 14 of her children were born by in vitro fertilization from sperm donated by a friend.

Suleman's publicist, Mike Furtney, said Thursday that Suleman was "feeling great" and looking forward to being reunited with her octuplets, who were born prematurely and are expected to remain in the hospital for several more weeks.

The state documents describe Suleman becoming pregnant with her first child after a 1999 injury during a riot at a state mental hospital where she worked.

Suleman feared she would lose the child and sunk into an intense depression, according to a psychological evaluation in her workers' compensation case.

"When you have a history of miscarriages, you think it will take a miracle," she told Dr. Dennis Nehamen. "I just wanted to die. I suspected I was pregnant but I thought, 'That's ridiculous.'"

But the 2001 birth of the baby "helped my spirits," Suleman said.

More than 300 pages of documents were disclosed to The Associated Press following a public records request to the state Division of Workers' Compensation.

Among other things, they reveal that Suleman collected more than $165,000 in disability payments between 2002 and 2008 for the work injury, which she said left her in near-constant pain and helped end her marriage.

Details of the documents were reported the same day that NBC released excerpts of Suleman's first interview since giving birth.

In the interview, Suleman called her childhood as an only child "pretty dysfunctional."

In the state documents, however, doctors quoted her as indicating she had a happy childhood. She told them she was an above-average student at Nogales High School in La Puente, where she enjoyed being a cheerleader, had many friends and stayed out of trouble. She said both her parents were loving and supportive.

According to the state documents, Suleman was injured Sept. 18, 1999, when a riot involving nearly two dozen patients broke out in the women's ward of the Metropolitan State Hospital in Norwalk, where she worked as a psychiatric technician. As she was helping other staff members restrain a patient, a desk thrown at her by another patient hit her in the back. It damaged her spine and left her complaining of headaches and intense pain throughout her lower body for years.

Suleman attributed the lingering pain in part to the breakup of her marriage to Marcos Gutierrez, whom she wed in 1996 and divorced in 2008.

She told a psychiatrist the bouts of depression she was suffering as a result of her injury were unfair to her husband.

"I don't want to keep bringing him down," she said. "I want him to move on with his life."

Public records show Suleman was listed on the Metropolitan State Hospital payroll from 1997 until last year, although it
appears she did little work after September 1999 because of her injury.

During a hearing on her case in December 2001, Suleman said pregnancy aggravated her back condition. She said she spent most of the day in bed and was unable to care for her first child, according to a report by workers' compensation judge Jerome Bulavsky.

After examining her in August, Dr. Steven Nagelberg attributed 90 percent of her condition to the work incident and 10 percent to her pregnancy.




news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090206/ap_on_re_us/octuplets

[lazarus]

This woman is addicted.......to children. Sad, but true. She simply want to push out as many babies as she can. When fourteen aren't enough...she'll be back at the fertility clinic with a turkey baster.

SOMEONE needs to tell her, "OK......we'll deliver this brood...only if you let us tie your tubes." Who is going to pay for the upbringing of these poor kids? You? Me? Oh....meybe the Messaih..............Jeez...I dunno. Sad, very sad.

[oskar]

When the practice of medicine is money driven.......................