Pax
Are We There Yet? Member
quod erat demonstrandum.
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Post by Pax on May 17, 2011 9:53:25 GMT -5
"Actually, he said there was NO comparison. His exact words."
Do you suppose he was using that phrase in the vernacular... c'mon, WS. You're telling me you truly took him literally, "that there was NO comparison," none whatsoever, down to, as I glibly said, the gender of the operatives? I doubt that. I think on this one you're just arguing for argument's sake, and let's argue about something worth arguing about.
As for al Qaeda... uh yeh, we went batshit over it. "Where, not who." He attacked civilians -- three thousand of them. "Who, not where" -- we attacked a specific military target, a particular person, for a reason specific to him personally.
As for "not liking the feeling" -- of course we don't. There's evidence for it. We didn't like it when terrorists attacked the military target USS Cole and killed 18 sailors. We also didn't like it when terrorists attacked the military target in Lebanon and killed 189 marines. But we didn't go batshit in either case. We just dealt with it. I could name other examples. So what was different on 9/11? Yes, it happened within our borders, that shook us up, you're right; but you stop there and you're arguing that any number of deaths greater than zero being involved and a border violation being involved (so we're told) are the only facts of any relevance. Those aren't the only relevant facts.
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wheelspinner
Are We There Yet? Member
Nobody's perfect, I'm a nobody, so ...
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Post by wheelspinner on May 17, 2011 15:42:07 GMT -5
are the only facts of any relevance.
Not what i wrote. When I write something, that's what I mean. When Brian takes the time to write something, I assume that's what he means.
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Pax
Are We There Yet? Member
quod erat demonstrandum.
Posts: 5,103
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Post by Pax on May 17, 2011 16:19:40 GMT -5
Hmh. I honestly can't think of anything at this point that wouldn't sound rude, and I usually hate myself after writing such things. So- again, thanks for the convo, WS.
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Post by patchoulli on May 17, 2011 16:28:31 GMT -5
"we attacked a specific military target, a particular person, for a reason specific to him personally"
Um, yeh, but BEFORE that we did kill an awful lot of innocent people in retaliation for our 3000/18/189. In two different countries. And we destroyed a lot of real estate.
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Pax
Are We There Yet? Member
quod erat demonstrandum.
Posts: 5,103
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Post by Pax on May 17, 2011 16:40:03 GMT -5
Whoa, I thought this was about comparing bin Laden crossing our border to kill 3000 innocent people versus our crossing Pakistan's border to kill the guy that did it, and finding those two actions interchangeable in every way that is important. If there are important ways in which you guys think they're different, then for God's sake, don't keep it to yourselves, it'd be a refreshing change.
Yeh, I didn't approve of us going into Iraq and It's truly awful that it ended in 6000 American lives lost, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives lost, and millions of Iraqis pushed into refugee status. But I didn't realize that was part of this topic. If we want to include all that it's going to be a VERY long night. Er, month. It'd take at least that long -- probably much longer -- for us to hash out the book-length ins and outs of what this country has done wrong or right with the recent wars. I don't have the time to expand this topic that far, but you can feel free to talk amongst yourselves.
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Post by patchoulli on May 17, 2011 17:02:03 GMT -5
Well, poo. Pax doesn't have time to talk, but has very generously given us permission to talk amongst ourselves. Would that be like the choir singing to the choir?? >>>>running away giggling>>>>>
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Pax
Are We There Yet? Member
quod erat demonstrandum.
Posts: 5,103
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Post by Pax on May 17, 2011 17:32:20 GMT -5
Ha. I feel like Justice Kennedy.
I remember, years ago, being center-left, and with double, even triple, the number of regular posters, I was solidly in the middle of the pack, the swing voter. There's been severe attrition to my right, and it's becoming more clear that oddly I'm actually the token conservative here now. Truly never saw that coming.
It's too bad that MSN boards shut down, and put us off here in the weeds. No new blood. The board is dying.
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oskar
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Post by oskar on May 17, 2011 17:49:39 GMT -5
As for al Qaeda... uh yeh, we went batshit over it. "Where, not who." He attacked civilians -- three thousand of them. "Who, not where" -- we attacked a specific military target, a particular person, for a reason specific to him personally.
Bin Laden was a civilian. Perhaps a terrorist and perhaps a criminal but a civilian nonetheless. What was done was simply an assassination of convenience and there are neither moral nor legal justifications for it.
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Pax
Are We There Yet? Member
quod erat demonstrandum.
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Post by Pax on May 17, 2011 19:06:04 GMT -5
I don't think he saw it that way.
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oskar
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Post by oskar on May 17, 2011 20:16:54 GMT -5
I don't give a rat's ass how bin Laden saw it. I believe I posted nothing but facts.
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wheelspinner
Are We There Yet? Member
Nobody's perfect, I'm a nobody, so ...
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Post by wheelspinner on May 18, 2011 2:40:32 GMT -5
I'm actually the token conservative here now. Truly never saw that coming. It's a shame that people insist on having this "liberals" vs "conservatives" adversarial thinking. Sometimes people just disagree about things, and agree about others. Discussion of those differences is why this board exists.
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Post by MacBeth on May 18, 2011 6:06:18 GMT -5
I agree - but I also see that it is hard for many of us (with myself at the head of the list) to see when disagreement turns ugly when we insist that we are right and someone else is wrong. And I feel sure we all believe we are posting the facts and the most rational of reactions to any particular situation
No problem with this - it is human, it is the basis of these sorts of discussions. And it is something that is not outside of ourselves and only the problem of others.
Boards live and die with their people. I hope we survive, but I know we are better for having known each other through the years. And I even more hope that we continue to know each other and learn more. Being challenged is the only way we can keep from falling into that 'bumper sticker' simplicity that is ruining discourse everywhere these days. If this is a place some of that can happen, wonderful. But only posters can determine if it has run its course.
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Post by cattleman on May 18, 2011 7:48:11 GMT -5
Its tough! I can understand why people were so outraged about the twin towers that they rejoiced that the man who claimed to be the perpetrator had been killed. I can even understand their frustration that he was, apparently, living fairly openly in a country who claimed to be an ally of the US.
I can also understand the politics of the situation and recognise that Obama organised a politically supreme move. I'm not sad that OBL is dead. Even if he didn't do it. What I am sad about is that USians still don't get it...
You aren't special! If you want there to be rules in relations between nations (and you do), if you expect other people to live up to international treaties (and you do), if you want other countries to respect your sovereignty (and you do), you can't just do what ever you want.
Saying "OBL was a really bad guy who did us damage and we got him back... wooo hooo", although understandable, doesn't justify what was done.
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oskar
Are We There Yet? Member
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Post by oskar on May 18, 2011 8:24:07 GMT -5
You aren't special! If you want there to be rules in relations between nations (and you do), if you expect other people to live up to international treaties (and you do), if you want other countries to respect your sovereignty (and you do), you can't just do what ever you want.
Exactly so.
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Post by patchoulli on May 18, 2011 10:02:13 GMT -5
"You aren't special! If you want there to be rules in relations between nations (and you do), if you expect other people to live up to international treaties (and you do), if you want other countries to respect your sovereignty (and you do), you can't just do what ever you want."
I absolutely agree with this. And a lot of people I know are beginning to feel this way, too. We cannot disregard our justice system for one person even if he is the baddest of the bad. He still has to get his day in court. In fact, if the very worst of them all isn't given that day then our system does not work, it's all a lie, and we might as well ditch it all. What is different now from when Pearl Harbor was bombed? Why did we not assasinate Hirahito? IMO if we don't stop doing these sorts of things we are just continuing to piss off the rest of the world's terrorists and they will continue to kill us and our allies. And I can't blame them. Someone has got to start the process of peace for the world. I wish it could be the US but if we don't start it at least I hope we get involved in the process.
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oskar
Are We There Yet? Member
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Post by oskar on May 18, 2011 11:35:21 GMT -5
"You aren't special! If you want there to be rules in relations between nations (and you do), if you expect other people to live up to international treaties (and you do), if you want other countries to respect your sovereignty (and you do), you can't just do what ever you want." I absolutely agree with this. And a lot of people I know are beginning to feel this way, too. We cannot disregard our justice system for one person even if he is the baddest of the bad. He still has to get his day in court. In fact, if the very worst of them all isn't given that day then our system does not work, it's all a lie, and we might as well ditch it all. What is different now from when Pearl Harbor was bombed? Why did we not assasinate Hirahito? IMO if we don't stop doing these sorts of things we are just continuing to piss off the rest of the world's terrorists and they will continue to kill us and our allies. And I can't blame them. Someone has got to start the process of peace for the world. I wish it could be the US but if we don't start it at least I hope we get involved in the process. The MIC would never allow the US to be a peace broker.
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Post by patchoulli on May 18, 2011 11:47:42 GMT -5
Who/what is the MIC? Man in charge? Mole incognito? ?
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oskar
Are We There Yet? Member
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Post by oskar on May 18, 2011 11:59:58 GMT -5
Military Industrial Complex
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Post by MacBeth on May 18, 2011 17:41:38 GMT -5
I am gonna stick with Mole InCognito
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Brian
Super Duper Member
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Post by Brian on May 21, 2011 15:02:52 GMT -5
"Actually, he said there was NO comparison. His exact words." Do you suppose he was using that phrase in the vernacular... c'mon, WS. You're telling me you truly took him literally, "that there was NO comparison," none whatsoever, down to, as I glibly said, the gender of the operatives? I doubt that. I think on this one you're just arguing for argument's sake, and let's argue about something worth arguing about. As for al Qaeda... uh yeh, we went batshit over it. "Where, not who." He attacked civilians -- three thousand of them. "Who, not where" -- we attacked a specific military target, a particular person, for a reason specific to him personally. As for "not liking the feeling" -- of course we don't. There's evidence for it. We didn't like it when terrorists attacked the military target USS Cole and killed 18 sailors. We also didn't like it when terrorists attacked the military target in Lebanon and killed 189 marines. But we didn't go batshit in either case. We just dealt with it. I could name other examples. So what was different on 9/11? Yes, it happened within our borders, that shook us up, you're right; but you stop there and you're arguing that any number of deaths greater than zero being involved and a border violation being involved (so we're told) are the only facts of any relevance. Those aren't the only relevant facts. Pax, great comments.
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Brian
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Post by Brian on May 21, 2011 15:06:17 GMT -5
Must be a kernel of truth to the old adage, "If you can't lick 'em, join 'em". Welcome the the "Terrorist Nations Club", Brian. Yeah, sure. We became a "terrorist nation" by going after and killing Osama Bin Laden. Come on.
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Brian
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Post by Brian on May 21, 2011 15:08:05 GMT -5
And there is no comparison between our action against Bin Laden and the 9/11 terrorist strike in New York City.Let's see.... - A covert group of assailants goes into another country with intent to kill
- A state of war does not exist between these two groups, nor has it been legally declared
- These assassins are convinced that the righteousness of their cause outweighs the niceties of the law
- They succeed in killing their target
- Their supporters rejoice.
No comparison at all, really. Two peas in a pod, actually. Hmmm....So Bid Laden was equivalent to the 3,000 innocent people he killed on 9/11?
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Post by Peltigera on May 21, 2011 15:10:35 GMT -5
Two peas in a pod, actually. Hmmm....So Bid Laden was equivalent to the 3,000 innocent people he killed on 9/11? Is morality mathematical?
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Post by Peltigera on May 21, 2011 15:13:29 GMT -5
Must be a kernel of truth to the old adage, "If you can't lick 'em, join 'em". Welcome the the "Terrorist Nations Club", Brian. Yeah, sure. We became a "terrorist nation" by going after and killing Osama Bin Laden. Come on. You became a terrorist nation a long time before that! Your long term activity in South America did that for you. Many thousands of people killed because they had the "wrong" politics - not so different to Bin laden.
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Brian
Super Duper Member
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Post by Brian on May 21, 2011 15:36:50 GMT -5
Hmmm....So Bid Laden was equivalent to the 3,000 innocent people he killed on 9/11? Is morality mathematical? I'm not talking about numbers only. On the one side you had 3,000 American men, women and children, folks who were doing nothing to anyone. On the other hand, you had Bin Laden, who had a large role--if not the paramount role--in the 9/11 plan that killed all those people. We also know that Bid Laden planned to kill more Americans. So what exactly should Obama--or any US President--be called upon to do? Nothing? You know, one of Obama's most important jobs is to protect Americans. Has American faltered in the past? Yes. Is America continuing to falter in certain ways? Yes. Are we without blame? Not even close. But let's get over this fallacy of pretending that 9/11 and the strike against Bin Laden are the same thing and that our strike against him makes us just as much to blame as the terrorists on 9/11. What a bunch of nonsense.
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Brian
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Post by Brian on May 21, 2011 15:38:25 GMT -5
Yeah, sure. We became a "terrorist nation" by going after and killing Osama Bin Laden. Come on. You became a terrorist nation a long time before that! Your long term activity in South America did that for you. Many thousands of people killed because they had the "wrong" politics - not so different to Bin laden. We have done wrong things. We are continuing to do some wrong things. But that does NOT make our decision to kill Obama Bin Laden the wrong thing to do or something that makes us equivalent to the worst terrorists.
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Post by Peltigera on May 21, 2011 16:43:01 GMT -5
We have done wrong things. We are continuing to do some wrong things. But that does NOT make our decision to kill Obama Bin Laden the wrong thing to do or something that makes us equivalent to the worst terrorists. It does put you in a position where you have little right to complain about Bin Laden . Sometimes, when your mis-deeds come home to roost, you just have to put your hands up and say "sorry". Which is something the USA has yet to do.
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wheelspinner
Are We There Yet? Member
Nobody's perfect, I'm a nobody, so ...
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Post by wheelspinner on May 21, 2011 17:56:39 GMT -5
So what exactly should Obama--or any US President--be called upon to do?
I think you know the answer to that already. If you don't, it's not for lack of people pointing it out to you.
The USA has been responsible for some horrors over the decades and is pretty much in a state of war with somebody 100% of the time. That is, you never stop killing people. You are responsible for far more political deaths than bin Laden, but you have all convinced yourselves that you're the good guys, so your killings are not as bad.
Pelti mentioned mid-deeds coming home to roost. Your behaviour in recent years is going to exacerbate that. The next time some US servicemen get captured and tortured, you won't have any grounds for complaint. If Americans get banged up for decades without trial in a foreign country, you won't have any grounds for complaint. You do these things, and thereby legitimise them for others.
It is obvious that you don't see yourselves the way others see you, but it might just give you pause that reasonable people around the world were disgusted by what happened. Or not.
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oskar
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Post by oskar on May 21, 2011 18:34:41 GMT -5
You became a terrorist nation a long time before that! Your long term activity in South America did that for you. Many thousands of people killed because they had the "wrong" politics - not so different to Bin laden. We have done wrong things. We are continuing to do some wrong things. But that does NOT make our decision to kill Obama Bin Laden the wrong thing to do or something that makes us equivalent to the worst terrorists. Wrong. It puts you in exactly the same boat as bin Laden. How many Iraqis, Brian? or Vietnamese? or Afhans? or Guatemalans? or Nicaraguans? or Panamians? or...
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Brian
Super Duper Member
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Post by Brian on May 22, 2011 10:10:51 GMT -5
We have done wrong things. We are continuing to do some wrong things. But that does NOT make our decision to kill Obama Bin Laden the wrong thing to do or something that makes us equivalent to the worst terrorists. It does put you in a position where you have little right to complain about Bin Laden . Sometimes, when your mis-deeds come home to roost, you just have to put your hands up and say "sorry". Which is something the USA has yet to do. So are you saying that 9/11 was a justified response by the terrorists to specific United States actions?
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