Brian
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Posts: 1,081
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Post by Brian on May 22, 2011 10:17:51 GMT -5
So what exactly should Obama--or any US President--be called upon to do?
I think you know the answer to that already. If you don't, it's not for lack of people pointing it out to you. The USA has been responsible for some horrors over the decades and is pretty much in a state of war with somebody 100% of the time. That is, you never stop killing people. You are responsible for far more political deaths than bin Laden, but you have all convinced yourselves that you're the good guys, so your killings are not as bad. Pelti mentioned mid-deeds coming home to roost. Your behaviour in recent years is going to exacerbate that. The next time some US servicemen get captured and tortured, you won't have any grounds for complaint. If Americans get banged up for decades without trial in a foreign country, you won't have any grounds for complaint. You do these things, and thereby legitimise them for others. It is obvious that you don't see yourselves the way others see you, but it might just give you pause that reasonable people around the world were disgusted by what happened. Or not. The point that you're missing--in fact, one that several in this thread are missing--is that what occurred or didn't occur in the past was irrevelant when it came time to make the decision about going after Osama Bin Laden. We knew Osama Bin Laden was behind 9/11 and other terrorist acts. He had already killed thousands of Americans. He wanted to kill more. Who knows, his next "big" terrorist attack might have killed 100,000 Americans (in the event he got a hold of a WMD or chemical/biological weapon). In this context, President Obama--or any US President--had a responsibility to go after Bin Laden. And as someone charged with protecting Americans, he did not have the luxury of sitting around and pondering the worthiness of every single US action over the past 50 years--like folks are doing here. |
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Brian
Super Duper Member
Posts: 1,081
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Post by Brian on May 22, 2011 10:20:12 GMT -5
We have done wrong things. We are continuing to do some wrong things. But that does NOT make our decision to kill Obama Bin Laden the wrong thing to do or something that makes us equivalent to the worst terrorists. Wrong. It puts you in exactly the same boat as bin Laden. How many Iraqis, Brian? or Vietnamese? or Afhans? or Guatemalans? or Nicaraguans? or Panamians? or... Oskar, do you believe that America is the most evil regime on the planet? |
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Post by MacBeth on May 22, 2011 11:53:33 GMT -5
That is true for how the world reacts to things - but at what point does someone, anyone say ENOUGH.....no more eye for an eye, no more killing for peace.
If no one does that, it only gets worse. Look around you.
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Brian
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Posts: 1,081
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Post by Brian on May 22, 2011 13:08:55 GMT -5
Ha. I feel like Justice Kennedy. I remember, years ago, being center-left, and with double, even triple, the number of regular posters, I was solidly in the middle of the pack, the swing voter. There's been severe attrition to my right, and it's becoming more clear that oddly I'm actually the token conservative here now. Truly never saw that coming. It's too bad that MSN boards shut down, and put us off here in the weeds. No new blood. The board is dying. Yeah, the format of Proboards makes it hard for new posters to find this place. And second, I think the exodus of the more conservative or right-wing posters has hurt the board. After all, it's diverse opinions that keep the discussion interesting and not stagnant. And diverse opinions also help folks learn things as well as refine their own views better. With a group of people who (mostly) have the same viewpoint, it's not as interesting or engaging as it could be. There is certainly a downside to the absence of both Laz and Wayne. They represented much different viewpoints. That helps diversity of opinion. |
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Post by MacBeth on May 22, 2011 14:26:54 GMT -5
That is probably true - but not worth the nastiness we see on so many boards where people abusing one another is the total of the conversations.
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Post by Peltigera on May 22, 2011 14:41:01 GMT -5
So are you saying that 9/11 was a justified response by the terrorists to specific United States actions? Justified? No! Killing in my world is never justified. But it was an action the USA had no right to complain about. Look at it this way, Brian. If you go across the tracks in any USA city and into a cheap bar and punch someone on nose, you will get punched back, like as not. Can you do that and then complain about the person who punches you back? Or do you have to accept it as a natural consequence of you own actions? We tend to call it taking responsibility. |
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wheelspinner
Are We There Yet? Member
Nobody's perfect, I'm a nobody, so ...
Posts: 4,103
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Post by wheelspinner on May 22, 2011 15:48:59 GMT -5
The point that you're missing--in fact, one that several in this thread are missing--is that what occurred or didn't occur in the past was irrevelant when it came time to make the decision about going after Osama Bin Laden. I think you are missing the point here. When we talk about "justice" - and Americans have been using that term endlessly about this - what happened in the past is supposed to govern our actions. It's called precedent. And precedent says war criminals get their day in court, and democratic leaders are not supposed to order hit squads. If the Israelis can restrain themselves and give a trial to the Nazis, you could do the same. You tell yourself that, but somehow the USA was never able to put together evidence in a court of law to even indict the man. Your argument is basically to allow mob rule to take the place of the justice system for people you hate enough, because trials are inconvenient. This was not a reflex action, it was carefully planned and rehearsed. Obama certainly had enough time to ponder what was the right thing to do and has the legal background to know the limits on his actions. He consciously chose extrajudicial execution - you think we should admire him for that? You don't protect Americans by stomping around the world killing people you don't like. We have already seen reprisals and there will be more, which no doubt you'll blame on the "bad guys". |
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oskar
Are We There Yet? Member
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Post by oskar on May 22, 2011 16:15:16 GMT -5
Wrong. It puts you in exactly the same boat as bin Laden. How many Iraqis, Brian? or Vietnamese? or Afhans? or Guatemalans? or Nicaraguans? or Panamians? or... Oskar, do you believe that America is the most evil regime on the planet? Did I ever say that? If I believed that I'd have said so loud and clear. |
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Post by patchoulli on May 22, 2011 17:05:17 GMT -5
Thanks, Wheel. I keep saying the same thing but no one seems to notice. I'm quoting myself from post #44 below.
"We cannot disregard our justice system for one person even if he is the baddest of the bad. He still has to get his day in court. In fact, if the very worst of them all isn't given that day then our system does not work, it's all a lie, and we might as well ditch it all.
What is different now from when Pearl Harbor was bombed? Why did we not assasinate Hirahito?"
If we set a precedent with bin Laden then what is to keep us from hanging child molesters in the public square or stoning to death people who've had extramarital affairs?
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